Awesome job bringing some of the major issues together in one place Doug. I would also add something about a potential attack/invasion/sanctions on Iran under the “Occupation of Iraq and Palestine.”

With the media: Should we do advertising, one important thing to consider is the different between the different publication’s time frame. Example: the progressive is monthly, the nation is weekly.

Also: one of the best things I thought came out of the regional conference was the chapter / individual report backs. I think its really important to learn what other people are doing and see what the power of a network of chapters really is.

 -Brian Kelly
Pace University SDS, NYC
kelly@leftist.ws
aim: resistance1986

Well if you are interested in including Youth Liberation in your list of topics above (and I’d definitely recommend it), NYRA would be willing to do a workshop on it. I intend to be in Michigan this summer anyhow, and depending on when you schedule it (early August is bad), I could attend.

In general a very good outline, Doug, of what needs to be covered. I would add a workshop or whatever for us MDS veterans from the “old days” of SDS as well. Our interests are probably more historical than most present day SDSers. Some of this stuff might be of interest to youth, too, but probably a lot of it is not.

Kurt Hill
Brooklyn, NY
(Member of Bard College SDS in the late ‘60s)

Throw it out there Kurt! It would be great for the MDSers to get productive discussion going in regards to the role of MDS and convention workshops.

Several points are relevant here which I apologize in advance for raising or having raised elsewhere. There are fora fora everywhere but no place that anything gets decided.

First, as far as fundraising, I have been noting for some time now that it is normal for a large national organization to have a user-friendly way to click a donation button and be able to donate. I have specifically posted on the discussion listserve a copy of the threeway incredibly user-friendly option provided by Petition Online (one is pay-pal, which has a lot of phishing in its name and involves hassle, and another is via Amazon.com and a third I think is straight credit card.) sds/mds, especially if people keep mentioning it on other websites and other media, should be able to raise considerable, if not necessarily itself completely sufficient, monies online. I think this donation button is something that, as a practical matter, leading figures need to pressure the site managers to install asap. Some people may think I am being bossy, but I am just being insistent on what seems a no-brainer.

Apparently, suggesting how with all the rarified protestations on eg why we can’t have a limited participation listserve added as it impinges on posters freedom to fill everyone’s mailboxes (sort of like suggesting that heterosexual marriage is threatened by the option of gay marriage?), decisions are getting made, some anonymous objections have been raised and been decisive. In general, although it is not always possible, we should beware of even provisionally embracing ideas that haven’t been publicly vetted first. I don’t have a clue as to WHO objected to donations on the grounds of objections to Pay Pal; it certainly hasn’t been put to open debate or (heaven forbid!) an online vote! Sorry to sound sarcastic but I have been frustrated by many things here, and trashed by some for what I see as mere practicality.

I support the idea of polling members online as it provides the possibility of democratic legitimacy in making decisions instead of the organizational paralysis that I sense beyond the chapter level.

—————————

A steering committee — clearly a dual approach is good, in part because we need to make sure of the logistics, which should go nice and smoothly as long as the political stuff is kept separate. Then everyone can bicker over topics and speakers and that sort of thing, while the food, housing, convention locale, and publicity get handled by those who are smart enough (not moi) to avoid the bickering part.

As for segregating the generations or students and non-students, except for a limited number of events (perhaps only one afternoon of ‘alternate events’) specific to mds, I think that is a bad idea. Some may see “compartmentalization” as I call it as a protection from manipulation and/or copperheadism/infiltration (or whatever term they understand the issue with), but my thinking is that the democratic process is made MORE vulnerable by compartmentalization, in general. That is certainly what happened when as supposed strategy and venue, this was one of the undertows in the Civil Rights movement kicking out the whites in 1965 (before my time but I studied the subject). And of course those who earnestly believe compartmentalization, which was harmful then and I believe would be now, is helpful, might in turn consider me hopelessly dense.

But I have also suggested that the issue of letting a new generation take the lead and learn organizing skills etc. that the committee, both any chairing and any secretary, be student-led. Further, implementation, to the extent reasonably feasible and positive, can be student led in its various components. So that way, we can have people work together on a unitary convention AND have the cultivation of student leadership and people from different campuses working together etc.

I would personally be interested in participating online in the work of the agenda, both topics of discussion and of decision at the convention. I have posted a number of discussion topics on eRAP, and might cut and paste them here, unless that’s a nono.
(please email me if it is).

——————————————

governance & decisionmaking at the convention. One problem will be how the convention itself will make decisions. Will it be one vote for everyone who shows up? At any rate, I don’t know the answer, so I just raise the question.

But as for decisionmaking structure, I do NOT see it coming out of the convention directly, in part for the above reason. Open-ended conventions, in my experience, are too easily packed. But at the convention, much easier if leaders have consensed around the issue beforehand, a proposal to create some kind of PROCESS to GENERATE a “Chapter Council”, a proposal that could be put to an up-or-down vote, presumably up. We might start working on the details of that proposal ahead of time, in those fora of open discussion open to us. The convention might provisionally approve the idea in outline to be subject to a subsequent online membership ratification, making everyone at least feel better — which is not to be sneered at as one of the great benefits of democracy. Re: Max Weber and “legitimacy” and blah-de-blah-blah-blah — and Pat, just wait till you have to wade through all that crap in college!

Anyhoo, one possible outline of the chapter council would be thus, just to give the idea some fleshing out conceptually:

*Every chapter encourages as many people in it to register with the national organization, even if under initials or a pseudonym or something, as possible. Thus, eg, online voting could be more feasible when needed (eg US starts bombing Iran or Roe v Wade gets overturned and quick national major decisions need to be made).

*Every chapter with at least ten (10) active members registered online nationally gets one rep in the national “chapter council”. Significantly larger chapters get extra reps by some agreed upon formula (one rep for every additional 20? whatever). So then you get a council with about 100 members, adding new ones as chapters qualify or grow. The Council then would grow in size, perhaps, like the size of Congressional districts, upping the number required for extra reps when the organization becomes larger.
Remember this is an interim structure until a Constitution and bylaws and mission statement are adopted, hopefully at a SECOND convention, possibly Xmas vacation 2007-8 in New Orleans.

*The Council would have various powers, which might be added or parametized by periodic online votes
One that I can think of is that Council approval would be necessary for ANY chapter to endorse or oppose any election position(ballot measure) or candidate, and then the Council would also decide whether to endorse or oppose nationally.

*The Chapter Council would approve an internal steering committee, which could be empowered to decide administrative stuff like breaking any remaining impasse on the donation button or the listserve flooding problem.

*The Chapter Council would oversee the preparation for the next national convention, and at least insure the drafting of proposal(s) for a mission statement
and national Constitution/bylaws.

*The Chapter Council would be authorized to form a national organizational newsletter, possibly online, with particular stuff that might not be of interest to New Left Notes, and other media outlet(s) and issues of ‘press spokespersons’ for the organization, as well as press releases.

*The Chapter Council would at least be able to make routine endorsements for the national organization, possibly delegating some of these decisions to its steering committee

*The Chapter Council would hopefully have some leeway to mobilize organizing resources, eg, to specifically and proactively (rather than passively waiting for chapters to start) start up new chapters where deemed strategic, eg, on historically black campuses, or on campuses with majority black and/or latino student populations where no chapter has started or where organizing for any reason is lagging. (There may be other venues where chapters need help or where they are desired, eg on the campuses of women’s colleges, although I think that poses less of an actual political issue over time).

These are mainly hypotheticals to give some idea of what would happen. After the convention, chapters would count up their members and elect reps from each chapter that qualifies. Obviously, new or small chapters would gain representation when they grew to a certain size, and would request and receive a seat on the Council.

At some point the organization needs to be able to establish guidelines that paramatize what each chapter may do or must do. For example, each chapter should be required to be internally governed by democratic process and substance. This might be anything from consensus to direct democracy to representative structure. Some provisions for the capture or colonization of specific chapters might be thought about over the longer term.

There is much to tinker with in this, or massively upend. But at least there would be some kind of working structure generated at least indirectly from the convention. A Constitution and so forth could then wait.

I’ll try to post some of the discussion topics I discussed on eRAP if that is permissible, unless told otherwise by May 16.

cloudy

Cloudy said: “Apparently, suggesting how with all the rarified protestations on eg why we can’t have a limited participation listserve added as it impinges on posters freedom to fill everyone’s mailboxes (sort of like suggesting that heterosexual marriage is threatened by the option of gay marriage?)”

I can’t even express how fucked up and illogical this sentence. It doesn’t even make sense.

The limiting of posting is just that: LIMITING.
Allowing gays to marry is: FREEDOM.

So your fucked up example doesn’t even make sense. Think before you type.

Try explaining yourself instead of opportunistically guilting people into agreeing with you on grounds that they are just like religious fanatics that don’t want gays to marry.

On the issue of representatives. I would think that representatives wouldn’t need to be permanately elected. I would think that they could go on a rotating cycle of those who wish to participate at that level of organisation. I am still hesitant about certain bodies like this. We should not rush to bang out any sort of structure until we really go into all the options (national structure, some sort of council, a loose network of affiliated chapters, and so on).

I would propose that we look into an online voting system. I maintain my opinion that voting through e-mail is fundamentally undemocratic when that e-mail system is about 1/3 of the actual KNOWN membership (not even the total membership). We could set up a secure, encrypted online voting system and mail out usernames and passwords of somesort to chapters (like we do with membership cards perhaps).

On the issue of the convention. My opinion is that the convention should be student led, student run, and student organized. I respect many of the MDS’ers who have been so supportive whenever students have needed assistance, advice, or support. However, I believe strongly that the people who are affected by struggles must be the ones who lead them. On the campus that is the students. I equally believe that while SDS’ers should provide support, advice and assistance whenever asked by MDS’ers, MDS and its members must decide what struggles to involve themselves in. I am an advocate for decentralisation and autonomy whenever possible and I think this is also one of those instances. Several MDS’ers have talked (not naming names) about the convention as “letting the youth take the lead” or “letting the students do the organising.” Newsflash- no one is LETTING the students organise. We are organising. I am really tired of the paternalistic attitude that some people have toward students. Since we started organising at Pace, we have had some of the best people assist and support us, who treated us as equals and not as inferior beings: Tom Good, our professors, organisers in NYC, other groups, and so on. I think this must be the model for SDS and for how MDS and SDS work with each other.

-Brian Kelly
Pace University SDS, NYC
kelly@leftist.ws

Previously I’ve posted at the convention poll thread. The current post I’m putting here because it seems to be where the action is i.e. the most recent discussion.

The most important thing for me right now is to be involved. Politically, morally, socially, personally. That’s why I’m here. Maybe that’s why many of us are here.

I really wish I could contribute input on all the issues but right now I just don’t have time. It’s maybe another element common to many of us.

So I’ll confine myself to the single issue maybe a couple of you already know me for, namely, I hope the convention choice is made on the basis of objective criteria. (See my reasoning process at the convention poll thread if you wish.) The bottom line is Ann Arbor objectively seems best. I understand UIC is the only official offer but every time I hear Chicago (or any other big city) it sounds crazy because of cost and congestion. There’s just no user friendliness at all in big cities except for millionaires and even then it’s questionable. It just seems totally crazy.

Ann Arbor is significantly smaller, more centrally located, more user friendly.

I wish I had time to really help organizing the whole thing. I can’t. I have a job. But I did want to contribute my perspective here for you who probably will be the ones making the decision. Maybe I’ll make a few phone calls anyway… but time surely is getting short. Others will have to work it out. But I sure wouldn’t select a big city.

Keep it simple. Don’t try to do too much.

And then me not having time to participate as much as I’d like because of work does bring up one other issue I want to address here. I very much enjoyed reading the comments of m(A)TT (yes m(A)TT if you’re there I really did) consequent to the regional NE conference — except the part about limiting participation by non-youth. I’m 55 years old. I hurts to even say it. You know, one day you will know, it’s a real burden to bear from an at least partly-prejudicial standpoint. I understand young people wanting to do their own thing obviously we are all young once and obviously moreover I’m of the generation “don’t trust anyone over 30″. But I think that attitude is short sighted, failing to take into account that anyone may have something to contribute. It’s not good to exclude anyone. I’d also like to offer as that there is more experience on which to draw of course as one gets older.

We all want to be a part. We don’t want to be excluded or ignored. None of us. Obviously not because we’re black or female or queer or poor or uneducated — or old!

I sure am looking forward to attending the conference wherever it is. I sure want to be of help in any way I can. I have a lot of things to say I think many of you would find very interesting and important. If there’s any way I can be of help despite my time limitation let me know if you want me to make phone calls or anything…

Till — I hope — soon. Not too long.

SES

I will add that we are all students our whole lives.

What about globalization/free trade as a conference agenda item. It is certainly a crux of Anti-Imperialism, Labor Organizing, and Cultural Hedgemony. I think it is vital include these topics in any dialogue about self determination and decentralization/pluralism.
Globalization and Free Trade are integrally linked with a perpetual war economy in the struggle to control labor and resources. Iraq is an instance in a larger struggle for economic domination and exploitation of peoples across the world, and unless it be respected as such, the connection between this and other instances necessary to sustain a movement toward systemic change may be lost. Examples are prevalent as social steam tended to disintegrate with the end of U.S. involvement in Vietnam. Especially with the current domestic escalation over immigration policies, an informed analysis on the root causes of immigration and the systemic nature of neoliberal economic consequence is necessary. Moreover, an encompassing analysis of the status quo is going to be key in formulating a positive definition of SDS, and so the inclusion of all the interrelated struggles for self determination. Also, what about the prison industry? And the conversation about what role SDS plays as integrated with other organizations populations, one example of which is mentioned above. As a self defined student organization, owning up to the specific privelage of that identity seems requisite to cooperate effectively with other allies on mutual goals.

overall though, i’m real stoked to read this dialogue. you know at NCOR they just offered one food option, which was vegan, and that covered everyone with greater efficiency as the lowest common denominator.

I didn’t get the impression that Doug V. was for “segregating” anyone, but rather that the differences between present-day students, and movement veterans like myself, should be noted and respected. If I were a 20-year-old SDSer (I wish!), I certainly would not like the oldsters looking over my shoulder all the time, making criticisms like, “Well, in 1969 we did things this way,” or whatever. In the ‘60s a lot of us were very interested in how the veterans of the ‘30s operated, particularly how the student movement of that day did things. However, we realized that times had changed, and that things were far different in 1968 from 1938. The same holds true for present-day students; they need to do their organizing in a manner that makes sense to 21st century youth. If they want the advice of us little old hippies, we’ll be glad to give it.

Kurt thanks for your comments. When I first read them they semed to sound very reasonable, reflective and some might even say possessed of wisdom. But after a little time passed it occured to me that there’s a problem.

“[Today’s students don’t want old timers telling them] back in 1969 we did things this way” …”times have changed since then”…”I certainly would not like oldsters looking over my shoulders all the time.”

The problem is these are preconceived generalizations. They are prejudices. It’s just like saying all Catholics have large families or all Jews are wealthy or all gays are interior decorators or whatever. Who says all older people will necessarily be insisting on “We did it like this in 1969″? Who says they necessarily will constitute an overbearing presence behind the shoulders of the young? Who says their age and experience are necessarily irrelevant? This kind of prejudgement about groups and especially when targeted to any particular individual about whom one has no personal knowledge just won’t wash. If there’s one thing I can say with more or less certainty it’s that this is what SDS IS or SHOULD BE all about. Oh sorry there I go being a pontificating oldster. So maybe SDS should just ignore this kind of issue and content itself with recycling paper. But you know I do see “Antiracism” (let’s say antibigotry) above among the SDS agenda of most important issues.

(Now whether any of these prejudices has an element of truth about it is a different matter and one accessed by a very slippery slope…)

“I certainly would not like oldsters looking over my shoulder all the time.” It’s the same as saying “I certainly wouldn’t like kids who don’t have a clue telling me what to do all the time.” It’s a prejudice.

And now I saw something else above that bothers me. Somewhere above Brian Kelly says “In my opinion the convention should be student led, student run, student organized. Well what if I said it should be organized, run and led by gay Vietnamese between the ages of 85 and 90? What’s my justification for excluding everyone else? Well what’s his justification for excluding everyone else? He says people affected by struggles should be the ones to lead them. Well fuck do people think that I’m not affected? Hell I’m a fucking slave of capitalism in a nation at war based on lies with no healthcare on a planet ready to fry doesn’t that fucking count for something?!

There’s another interesting matter. People talk about not having the current SDS based just on nostalgia. I agree. But I want to point out that people who weren’t around in 1969 can also be motivated by nostalgia. One can be positively fascinated by times prior to one’s own birth and motivationally it really can qualify as nostalgia. I think it was m(A)TT who said he was reading all these books about the sixties…

And then there really is another serious side to all this. The SDS of the 1960’s — it failed, that is to say, it died. That’s not the mark of a healthy organization. The KKK did better. So did Campus Crusade For Christ. You get the picture. It would have been better if SDS had been an organization strong enough to survive all those years influencing people and then maybe we wouldn’t be in such a shit situation. Well listen we don’t want to make the same mistakes twice.

So to conclude, look, the only thing I really had said heretofore is “Determine the convention site by legitimate objective reasons” which I tried hard to spell out. Well it’s the same thing about including/excluding people. If you’re going to exclude people I think you better be able to have damn good reasons for doing so that you can spell out.
And when it comes down to it I think you’ll find there are not many good reasons for excluding people.

***

Something more I want to say about the convention site. I still think Ann Arbor is best and not a big city like Chicago (the traffic jam begins at Gary Indiana before you even get to Illinois). Here are two toll free phone numbers for Ann Arbor: 800-888-9487 is the Convention and Visitors Bureau and the alumni office at UofM is 800-847-4764 maybe they could advise something I tried these today but it was too late and I just don’t have enough time to do much more I wish I did.

And you know a place like Kent State would be just as good and it’s even more centrally located between NY and Chicago than Ann Arbor and it’s eminently accessible. I really wish I could help out with all this but like I said I’m a slave of the system and just can’t right now.

Friendly greetings to everyone. Empowerment to everyone.

Chicago sounds nice to me. I think, for sds, the internet right now is a difficult way of communicating nation-wide. I know in Tacoma we are organized and know what’s happening and who to call on a small scale. This is because of the benefit we have of seeing eachother all the time and knowing everyone on a first name basis. I wathed rebels with a cause last night for the first time and noticed that communication between the chapters nationally was a problem while locally it was no big deal. Maybe we need to utilize other means of communication while organizing things this big. Possibly telephone calls or mailed letters. I know there was a telephone convention earlier but I only learned about it after the fact. I’m feeling very out of the loop as far as national sds goes. This is okay right now because we are all new and exploring tactics but I think we need to focus some time on really communicating better with eachother. If anyone has any great ideas or tactics that work well, my email is neverforget15000@yahoo.com and my phone number is (925) 518-9060. I know this goes against “security culture,” putting my number online where all those FBI agents can see, but I don’t really care and hope they are afraid enough to listen to my conversations because they should be.

-Patrick Edelbacher
Tacoma SDS
tacomasds.org

Ses said: “And now I saw something else above that bothers me. Somewhere above Brian Kelly says “In my opinion the convention should be student led, student run, student organized. Well what if I said it should be organized, run and led by gay Vietnamese between the ages of 85 and 90? What’s my justification for excluding everyone else? Well what’s his justification for excluding everyone else? He says people affected by struggles should be the ones to lead them. Well fuck do people think that I’m not affected? Hell I’m a fucking slave of capitalism in a nation at war based on lies with no healthcare on a planet ready to fry doesn’t that fucking count for something?!”

First off, I think you misunderstood my decentralisation point about people leading their own struggles, but I will get back to that in a moment.

I made the comment that I believe the conference should be student run and I stand by it firmly. The organisation is currently a student run organisation. At colleges and high schools around the country we have run hundreds of events since forming in January (and other SDS chapters since long before then). There is a need for a student-run organisation that deals with societal problems from a youth prespective. Why? Because the system of education, from the primary to the collegiate levels is a system that molds youths into the consumers of tomorrow. It molds the young people of the world into certain class positions that they remain in it for the rest of their lives. We are told to listen meekly, question nothing, to conform, and to consume. We are allowed to speak out so long as that speaking out does not challenge the status quo; but we are struck down should we challenge any form of real power. So yes: I do believe we need a student run organisation.

Ses said: “Well what if I said it should be organized, run and led by gay Vietnamese between the ages of 85 and 90? What’s my justification for excluding everyone else?”

If it is a student organisation, unless they are students, you obviously wouldn’t have one.

Ses said: “Well what’s his justification for excluding everyone else?”

The students who have been reviving the student movement are not going to step aside and let people tell them what to do, how to do it, or how it was done in the past. We obviously imput from past genderations of student activists, but SDS must be student run. That obviously brings up the question of MDS and its role in relation to SDS. I obviously agree that the opposite is true. It would most likely be undemocratic if student SDSers were involved in the decision-making, and planning procedures of MDS - - unless of course they work full time, or some other issue is present.

I said this in my last post: “However, I believe strongly that the people who are affected by struggles must be the ones who lead them.”

I was refering to my belief in the decentralised and autonomous nature of struggle.

Ses said: “Well fuck do people think that I’m not affected? Hell I’m a fucking slave of capitalism in a nation at war based on lies with no healthcare on a planet ready to fry doesn’t that fucking count for something?!”

I don’t think I implied that you or anyone else wasn’t oppressed by capitalism. I just stated that students should be fighting struggles on campus unaffected by people who have no immediate stake in fighting for education reform.

Bottomline: SDS needs to be student run.

I have read your post and I will clarify some issues and restate others.

First I will start off by saying that SDS is currently a student organisation. If you look at the work being done on the ground it is students who are organising around many issues and in many struggles. That being said, I will move on to some of your other points.I am not advocating isolation in any sense. I think you have misunderstood some of my opinions and positions. So I will try to clarify some of them. First off: I do not believe that any one generation has absolute knowledge or wisdom about what to do in a given situation. When I stated “Students are not going to step aside and let people show them how it was done in the past.” I was simply expressing a very strong statement, that, no matter how much advice, imput we get from others, we will decide where to take the organisation ourselves. This is true because we are already doing it. Like I have said in previous posts, our efforts (at Pace U) would not have beeb successful and will not in the future without the support of our professors and other activists in NYC and elsewhere. (Tom Good is one great example). However what has allowed us to be successful is that these people are supportive; but NEVER tell us what to do (not that we would allow that anway).

“You suggest students should “lead” their own struggle. The point is not who leads anything. The point is getting the job done and the more people who have something to contribute the better.”

I disagree totally. It is about whose leading struggles. I am not talking about leaders here though. I am talking about students leading their struggles, workers leading their struggles, and so on. How these struggles are linked is through solidarity networks were people from outside a given struggle give support, advice, materials, help, etc… when asked by those involved in struggle, but they do not decide for them. In my opinion, participatory democracy is not about everyone having absolute say in every issue of the world, but having say in the issues that affect them most. Based on that, I think it would be quite questionable for people not involved in a given struggle (a student strike for instance) to have a say in the direction of that movement or the goals of it. Advice, debate, discussion is of course another matter. The highest level of debate should be encouraged in all levels of society based on principles of fairness and equality.

You said: “It would be entirely equivalent if I said “Students are young and naive we can’t have them running the show.” It’s exactly the same thing.”

No its not. I am saying that students aren’t going to let people tell them what to do. I never said that I or others don’t want to listen. It is an entirely different issue.

You said: “Furthermore I ask that you reflect on the attitude exhibited in “Students are not going to stand aside.” Would it please you if I told you I am not going to stand aside and let students push me around? Or that elders are not going to stand aside and let kids push them around?” Is this the talk of friends?”

First off, you need to look at the context to which I was responding. And second you have to understand it wasn’t directed at you personally, but at people who have in the past, very sternly, told the organisation how things SHOULD be done, just because he said so.

Secondly, I envision two groups: SDS and MDS, within a larger organisation: call it SDS. That operate seperately, autonomously, and independently with one another. I do however see them working together on many, many issues. However, as much as they may work together, I think they should have autonomous power to make decisions and set goals.

And, while im sure I missed some of what you said, I’ll respond to your last post. I never, ever said I didn’t want MDSers at the convention. But I believe the convention should be student run, and organised. I think MDS should have their own workshops so they can bang out their own opinions and outlooks.

More to come later I suppose.

-B.Kelly
Pace University SDS, NYC

Hey Everyone!

Here is something potentially important!

Recently I emailed May 4th Task Force at Kent State. I told them I was tied up but that possibly someone there might be interested in undertaking to host the August national conference. I figured it was a long shot.

Low and behold I received an enthusiastic answer from Chic Canfora. He says quote “I am very interested in helping bring the event to Kent. Please let me know what I can do to help bring the August conference to Kent through M4TF.” He also expressed interest in starting an SDS chapter at KSU.

THEREFORE … I urge whoever is handling the matter to contact Chic Canfora at M4TF at this email: http://dept.kent.edu/may4/ at the earliest opportunity if the matter of conference location is still open. Obviously I would volunteer to help out myself but I’m all tied up.

Chic is apparently a faculty member at KSU. He and his brother Alan are survivors of May 4, 1970 as is Alan’s roomate from the time Tom Grace.

It is important for the following reasons. Kent is a totally easy one day drive from NYC and from Chicago. Ann Arbor from NYC is much tougher. Kent is right off the interstate. It is a modest sized residential city and prices likewise are modest. There should be places to crash and places to camp. It ought to be hassle free from a logistics standpoint. I know the area well. Chic Canfora knows it even better.

Chicago is bad news for those driving and in terms of expenses.

This is not a sentimental or nostalgia issue. The selection of the conference site should be objectively based IMHO.

Nevertheless the historical element has its compelling aspect. Alan and Chic Canfora and Tom Grace are part of history.

I do hope someone will look into this possibility.

If there’s anything I can do to facilitate in spite of my limited time please let me know.

S.E.S

test

test 2

I don’t know what’s going on. My tests go through but not text I try to post. Let me try again by making it very short. It is something potentially important.

On a long shot I emailed May 4 Task Force. I received an enthusiastic reply from Chic Canfora. He says “I am very interested in helping bring the event to Kent. Please let me know what I can do to help bring the August conference to Kent through M4TF.”

Alan and Chic Canfora are May 4 survivors. Chic is apparently a faculty member at KSU.

I urge whoever is handling matters to contact Chic at the May 4th Task Force website.

It should not be a sentimental matter. Kent is a great possibility from a logistics standpoint. Nevertheless the historical element has its compelling aspect.

SES

And now Brian…

I appreciate the time you took to reply. The key phrase in your post is “I see people working together” and that’s the angle I hope you’ll pursue. Any exclusionary tendencies I think are not so good. Anyway we have both expressed our views for others to make up their own minds and neither of us has time to pursue long posts. Hey I sure hope someone follows up on Chic Canfora because Kent is such a good location…for objective reasons. Till later…

SES

Ses, I appreciate your commentary and especially the fact that you actually contacted the May 4th committee at Kent. It seems like there is alot of haggling going on when what needs to really happen is the legwork to make the thing happen.
You might also consider contacting the Kent State SDS chapter organizer (check the chapter list for contact info, I believe Greg S. is the contact) to see what their capacity for helping to organize this might be. Your general argument for Kent seems reasonable, but Chicago is still a more likely location because there are a number of SDS chapters in the immediate region outside Chicago (Depaul U., Chicago Metro SDS, Urbana Champaign, Northern Illinois). In the end it will all depend on the ability of the host city’s organizers to secure the spaces, housing, etc…

I would argue that Chicago holds FAR more historical/symbolic significance for SDS than Kent State (while Kent St. SDSers certainly played a role in the post-Cambodia invasion student strikes across the country, Chicago was the location of the LAST previous SDS national convention (it could be like a phoenix rising from the flames, so to speak). It was also the location of the 1968 Battle of Chicago, the Fred Hampton murder, the Trial, Days of Rage (whatever your view of Weather is), the Haymarket incident, as well as the SDS national office (which doesn’t mean I advocate one now beyond a purely support role). One could go on and on.

You have also brought up traffic issues with Chicago (the Gary, Indiana comment above). You tend to only take into account those who will be driving. What about those (especially the oldtimers who can afford to) who might fly in, or those who will take the train or bus. To put it simply, Chicago is a much more accessible travel hub than Kent, or Ann Arbor.
Don’t forget that we have A LOT of west coast chapters right now, SDS is not dominated in any sense by the east coast. So all effort should be made to make this as accessible as possible for ALL SDS/MDSers There are also more Hostels and cheap motels within the city itself, a much bigger public transportation system (which opens up housing options for people substantially).
Again I appreciate your effort with the whole Kent thing and I don’t think anyone has ruled it out, but that said, Chicago is where we have made contacts and work is slowly beginning to take shape there. There will presumably be another conference call soon about the convention. If Kent people are down, you should certainly invite them to take part in the call. Same thing with Ann Arbor (drop Al Haber a line).

Beyond those basic logistical issues, your repeated comment that students should not “lead the struggle” is a bit pointless, if you consider the posts both Brian and myself have made on the issue. We have both said that MDS (which you would probably fall under) should have their own space to have discussions amongst themselves during the convention. You yourself have repeatedly cited the fact that you are a “wage slave” ( I am too, full time worker here myself/between BA and grad school). I have also repeatedly stated that “intergenerational dialogue” is absolutely essential to building a radical movement that learns form thepast, but faces the unique situations of the present. People like Tom Hayden have certainly understood that. During the RNC protests in NYC two years ago, one of the most inspiring events I attended was a “intergenerational back and forth” featuring Hayden, a former Panther, and a UAW militant. Of course we can learn from the struggles of our older comrades.
The more pressing issue that I think both Brian and myself have raised is that actual students within the university system occupy an interesting place within the society. While there is a radical minority within academia, the majority of students are being groomed/indoctrinated to become the future managers, specialists, or coordinators of the capitalist system. The entire student culture is meant to inculcate such values in young minds. In many ways this type of labor is becoming more and more precarious (see French revolt of 2006). In that sense students occupy a crucial position within the capitalist social order. If we rebel, we can generate very big outcomes and forms of resistance. If students opt out of the system, how can it function, especially if insurrection spreads to young workers (see France May 1968)?
Students ARE NOT by any means the only agents of radical social change, but the university has proven time and time again to stimulate the type of critical consciousness required to build a mass movement for anti-systemic revolt. That is why the right is aiming to destroy the academic left today (see the case of Joseph Massad at Columbia U. or David Graeber at Yale U. to understand how this is working right now).
To sum up my position, I feel old timers should have a very equal share in building the NEXT LEFT, but until you can offer some concrete ideas of how older people can contribute or even lead such a struggle, I will stick to my position: young students and workers are the most significant agents of social change in an industrial society. It has nothing to do with “getting things done.” It has everything to do with getting the most important social sectors moving in an anti-systemic direction. I doubt baby boomers and AARP folks will manage to “spark the revolution” anytime soon, but if you can provide any examples, please let us know. This is not to deny that older folks will play a significant role within a revolution or whatever you want to call a radical social transformation. They very well may play such a role. I doubt that their societal position within the capitalist system as it stands now, makes it very likely however.
I’m not trying to be mean in any sense. I just want to stimulate discussions of HOW THE SYSTEM ACTUALLY WORKS, and how we can defeat it once and for all.

In solidarity
Doug V

One topic that the MDS workshop might discuss is how we can help in the post-student “transition” that folks make after they are graduated from school. While students (whatever their ages may be) should be responsible for managing STUDENTS for a Democratic Society, the time comes when one ceases to be a “student” in the technical sense of the word (however much one continues to study and learn throughout one’s lifetime). One enters the world of work, the world of the MOVEMENT for a Democratic Society.

Some MDSers may be able to offer job leads—or even jobs—to recent graduates. Others may be able to help grads in specific industries. We might even be able to assist folks in relocating to our neck of the woods from another area, by providing first hand information, etc.

These are questions which we could address in an MDS workshop (among others, of course).

Kurt Hill
Brooklyn, NY

The reason I think Kent is a good conference site choice, once again, is for objective reasons. It’s a very easy one day drive from Chicago. It’s almost that easy a drive from NYC. It’s almost right in the middle. It’s right off the interstate. Traffic and access are super easy it’s the antithesis of Chicago. Kent is a smallish quiet town mainly residential. It has a food CoOp right downtown. There are lots of nearby motels and fast food if one wants that — at least those places pretty cheap. There should be plenty of places to crash and there should be nearby camping.If people are flying in there’s Akron Canton or the Cleveland airport (or Kent Airport if you’ve got a Beechcraft!) well it would probably take about an hour to get to Kent from those but it probably wouldn’t be much different with O’Hare in Chicago.

***

Here is the text of Chic Canfora’s email to me. I wanted to post it yesterday:

“I am very interested in learning about the August SDS conference and in helping to bring such an event to Kent State.

Danny Miller, a filmmaker at U. of Oregon is completing a phenomenal film about the role of Kent SDS in the Vietnam anti-war movement that
ultimate led to the shooting deaths of four Kent State students, and the wounding of nine other students, including my brother Alan Canfora and
his roommate Tom Grace–both former Kent SDS members. I, too, am a survivor of the shootings and all of us are featured in Danny Miller’s film
on SDS and our actions before and after our Kent SDS chapter was kicked off campus in 1969.

I cannot think of a more important place to launch a new student movement with SDS at the forefront than at Kent State. I currently teach at KSU and have remained active with the May 4 Task Force since its
inception in 1975, as has my brother, Alan Canfora. Alan’s website (alancanfora.com) has many details about Kent SDS, as does the Kent May 4 Center
website (May4.org) where Alan serves as Director and I am President of the Board.

Danny Miller attended our May 4 commemoration in 2005 and showed shared his amazing documentary on the history of Kent SDS. It truly was, what
Bernardine Dohrn called “the Vanguard of the movement.”

Please let me know what I can do to help you bring the August conference to Kent through the May 4 Task Force or by organizing a new Kent chapter of SDS.”

[Chic Canfora]

***

I said in my original email to M4TF I couldn’t organize the conference myself because I’m tied up working in Albuquerque and I urged “anyone there who might want to just try and go for it” to contact this website. Well I was surprised to get a response from one of the Canforas and I will be emailing him back and encouraging him once again not to work through me but to contact you people at this website directly. Or you folks as I said yesterday should contact him if you think Kent is an option. From the point of view of user friendliness I think Kent is a great possibility. Second choice Ann Arbor but it’s not as centrally located.

***

Doug like I always say to people “thanks for your thoughtful reply”.

I certainly agree with you Chicago is historically important even moreso than Kent but I’m just working the practical angle. (And not surprisingly — I don’t want to be pegged as just a nostalgia freak.) Chicago is a great place too it’s just pretty dense and congested a place like Kent would probably be a lot easier. Chicago is better if people are driving from the far west but if they’re flying it’s just as easy to go to Kent. Well — I’m going to leave this up to all of you but if there’s any way I can help from Albuqerque let me know.

FINALLY back to the student/oldster thing! And your perspective Doug. I love to discuss issues/concepts I’m much more an ideologue than an organizer and so yes there is more I want to say about this but I just don’t have time right now. For now all I’ll say is all kinds of people of all ages and groups have things to offer and advantage should be taken wherever it can be found. I can visualize the possibility of SDS being one day BIG. Maybe it could one day supplant the Democratic Party. Why not? Maybe it could “change the world”! So I think we should welcome anyone who wants to join and help out and everything will fall into place without prejudgement.

Gotta go now and I probably won’t have time to get back until next week.

If Kent doesn’t work out this time it still would be a great place another time.

SES

Not sure if this was already mentioned as a possible workshop, but at the Labor Notes Conference here in Detroit there was a great “Youth Interest in Labor Activism” workshop that I think would be really useful here. I might be able to talk to some people about facilitating it at the convention if I can find some other people that are interested.

Just a Reminder

Convention Conference Call

MONDAY

MAY 29th

9:00 PM (EASTERN STANDARD TIME)

Dial In Number: 1 - 712 - 432 - 2323
Access Code: 968968

Hope to hear from people
Doug V

Just a short update:

Pat Korte has been in touch with Bill Ayers (who is on faculty at UIC) who said it may be possible to secure dorm rooms for crash space. We’ll see how that pans out.

ALSO, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE GET AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE TO REGISTER ONLINE FOR THE CONVENTION SO WE CAN GET A GOOD IDEA OF THE LOGISTICAL NEEDS THE ORGANIZERS MIGHT HAVE TO TACKLE.

Doug V

um, i dont know if i had interrupted an exclusive conversation, but i find it a bit odd that no one responded at all to my previous post. i am not currently in any chapter but do plan on attending the national gathering and do plan on further organizing given i feel confident about the information i absorb. i am currently a student in the midwest at a major state university. Does anyone have any input on the inclusion of immigrant rights issues or solidarity with latin american struggles as an SDS initiative? is this not the forum to discuss this? is there a better place online to continue this vein of dialogue?